#52587: "Suggest faction drafting variant"
무엇에 대한 보고입니까?
무슨 일이 발생했나요? 아래에서 선택하세요
무슨 일이 발생했나요? 아래에서 선택하세요
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# | Status | Votes | Game | Type | Title | Last update |
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상세한 설명
• 만약 오류 메세지가 화면에 나타났다면, 그 오류 메세지를 복사해서 붙여넣어 주시기 바랍니다.
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 무엇을 하고 싶었고, 무엇을 했고, 무슨 일이 일어났는지를 설명해 주십시오
• 브라우저가 무엇입니까?
Mozilla v5
• 현재 설정된 언어가 아니라 영어로 표시되는 문장을 복사 후 붙여넣어 주세요. 만약에 버그에 대한 스크린샷을 가지고 계신다면 Imgur.com 사이트에 업로드 하시고, 여기에 링크를 복사/붙여넣기 하시기 바랍니다.
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 해당 문장이 번역 본부에서 표시됩니까? 만약 그렇다면, 번역된 지 24시간이 경과했습니까?
• 브라우저가 무엇입니까?
Mozilla v5
• 최대한 쉽게 그 뜻을 이해할 수 있도록 당신의 제안을 정확하고 명료하게 설명해 주십시오.
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 브라우저가 무엇입니까?
Mozilla v5
• 당신이 막혔을 때 화면에 무엇이 나타났습니까?(검은 화면? 게임 인터페이스? 오류 메시지?)
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 브라우저가 무엇입니까?
Mozilla v5
• 어느 규칙이 BGA 서비스에서 존중되지 않았습니까?
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 게임 리플레이에서 룰 위반을 확인할 수 있습니까?만약 그렇다면, 몇번째 수에서 룰 위반이 있나요?
• 브라우저가 무엇입니까?
Mozilla v5
• 당신이 하고 싶었던 게임 내 행동이 어느 것입니까?
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 이 게임 행동을 하기 위해 무엇을 시도했습니까?
• 당신이 이것을 하려고 했을 때 무슨 일이 일어났습니까?(오류 메시지, 게임 상태창 메시지 등)
• 브라우저가 무엇입니까?
Mozilla v5
• 어떤 부분에서 문제가 발생 하였나요(문제가 발생했을 당시 어떤 지시가 내려졌었나요)?
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 당신이 게임 행동을 하려 했을 때 무슨 일이 일어났습니까?(오류 메시지, 게임 상태 막대 메시지, ...)
• 브라우저가 무엇입니까?
Mozilla v5
• 디스플레이 문제를 설명해주세요. 만약에 버그에 대한 스크린샷을 가지고 계신다면 Imgur.com 사이트에 업로드 하시고, 여기에 링크를 복사/붙여넣기 하시기 바랍니다.
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 브라우저가 무엇입니까?
Mozilla v5
• 현재 설정된 언어가 아니라 영어로 표시되는 문장을 복사 후 붙여넣어 주세요. 만약에 버그에 대한 스크린샷을 가지고 계신다면 Imgur.com 사이트에 업로드 하시고, 여기에 링크를 복사/붙여넣기 하시기 바랍니다.
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 해당 문장이 번역 본부에서 표시됩니까? 만약 그렇다면, 번역된 지 24시간이 경과했습니까?
• 브라우저가 무엇입니까?
Mozilla v5
• 최대한 쉽게 그 뜻을 이해할 수 있도록 당신의 제안을 정확하고 명료하게 설명해 주십시오.
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 브라우저가 무엇입니까?
Mozilla v5
보고 이력
For the near-term, our primary focus is on implementing the official rules. We know faction drafting is a fan-favorite unofficial variant, but it's not as easy as copy-pasting code from another project. (It's actually easier to design it from scratch, believe it or not.) With limited time and resources, we sometimes need to be picky about what we can work on.
At this time, the auction variant is not publisher-approved. Terra Mystica introduced faction bidding with the Fire & Ice expansion; the Gaia Project rules (published well after Fire & Ice) do not suggest faction bidding. I can only speculate as to the reasoning there, but the publisher-endorsed balancing mechanism for Gaia Project is tile rotation, not faction bidding.
But a larger problem is that faction bidding in Gaia Project has several ill-defined behaviors relative to Terra Mystica:
- Presumably, you build the map and then bid on factions; after all, you know what the map looks like before bidding in TM.
- Does the last player still get to rotate the tiles? If so, does that happen before or after the auction?
- If it happens before the auction, how do you mitigate the starting player advantage?
You could make some informed guesses here, and certainly as a more competitive player, you'd be better qualified to do so than I would, but I would be uncomfortable proceeding with one player's interpretation of the unofficial variant, no matter how qualified that one player may be.
I suspect the community will align on a set of faction bidding rules for Gaia Project on BGA -- after all, Terra Mystica's BGA implementation is not exactly as stated in the Fire & Ice rules -- and that faction bidding will eventually be added. For this reason, I'm happy to leave this suggestion open: I expect it to eventually be integrated. But for the immediate future, we won't be adding it.
- Build Map
- Last player rotates
- Pick races -> Bidding
One thing to add is that a map generation should be added that has a basic fair setup.
1. No planets of the same color at distance 2
2. No clusters of planets > 3
That would be a good basis for a somewhat fair map. There was a Gaia setup website that actually generated pretty good maps but it seems to be defunct now. I believe in addition to the 2 things above it looked at the overall distribution of planets and counted outer hex tiles vs inner hex tiles planet colors.
Do you mean the map generation that's already part of the setup right now? It's an experimental feature we've added that may or may not stick around. If you try it out, let us know what you think.
- Build Map
- Last player rotates
- Pick races -> Bidding (for both races and eventual playing turn order, like in TM)
The last player would still rotate the tiles, which could make for a more or less balanced game, but even if there ended up inevitably strong and weak races in the game after rotation, the bidding would help even it out with point handicaps. The last player would still be motivated to not make a minority of races super super strong, as in theory players ahead of them in turn order could bid all their VP to avoid ending up with the terrible dud. I am not an expert in TM or the auction process, but I have played many dozens of games of GP here and am convinced that something like it is necessary if you want to have organized competitive play. I will still enjoy it whether or not it happens.
Thank you again for all of your hard work bringing GP to the site.
>Do you mean the map generation that's already part of the setup right now? It's an experimental feature we've >added that may or may not stick around. If you try it out, let us know what you think.
I will try it out. Would you mind sharing what the map generation algorithm tries to consider at the moment to build a fair map?
It looks at every planet of every color and considers the following, with different scoring factors for each:
1) Distance to a gaia planet
2) Distance to a transdim planet
3) Distance to all other planets and how much terraforming would be required
4) Being on the edge of the map subtracts from the score somewhat
Additionally, the algorithm considers other constraints aside from score, like ensuring that a planet cluster contains no more than 4 planets.
- Build Map
- Last player rotates
- Pick races -> Bidding (for both races and eventual playing turn order, like in TM)
- Build Map
- Randomly choose a player who gets to rotate tiles (OR always make highest elo ranked player rotate the tiles)
- Randomly choose order in which players will do the bidding. (OR choose order based on elo rating - Players ranked from lowest will bid first. Lower ranked players should have right to choose more since they on average play worse)
- Players bid VPs for order/position in which they pick races which is also the order/position they play first round.
- Pick races in determined order based on results of auction.
There can be two types of auctions, probably setup a poll or something :
1) Simultaneous VP bids - players choose how much VPs they bid, click confirm and results will be determined at once after reveal. (There can be nuance whether to make last player lose VPs or not but to be discussed)
or
2) (the one we used, although it adds playing time)
- Choose how much VP you bid on which position (say you start the auction so you bid 2vp for 1st. [Bidding 0vp for any position is also valid])
- Next player can either bid more for same position or relinquish that position and bid for lower position
- Players can never bid VPs for higher positions after they bid for lower (once u bid any VP for 2nd, you cant bid for 1st after)
(Case might occur where one player bid for 2nd and 3 players fight for 1st whole orbit, in that case that player just waits since there is nothing to bid for)
If I were to implement something of my own choosing, it would probably be this:
1) The random map generator creates a new map. No rotation. (We're already in unofficial territory here, so why not speed up creation somewhat.)
2) The last (or first?) player without a faction picks a faction that he wants
3) Everyone bids a number of VP they're willing to pay to get this faction. Probably blind bids to make it faster.
4) The highest bidder gets the faction, with ties broken by the person proposing the faction. (i.e. If you choose a faction no one wants, you'll get it for your 0 VP bid.)
5) Go back to step 2, including only players without factions. Repeat until everyone has a faction.
For a four player game, this has no rotations and three blind bids, with some extra strategic options vs. bidding before knowing any of the factions involved.
By making sure races are picked before the auction it also means it won't always be the generally strongest factions seeing play
Generate map at random/algorithm/whatever, no rotation to save time (choosing this could be
Random 1st player chooses a race to be first, next player picks second, etc
Then it's simultaneous bid on the "initial order + race" combo
I do agree that faction bidding is mandatory for competitive play.
But I don't agree with the fact that map generation algorithm should be adapted by exemple to avoid cluster of > x planets.
The reason is : if faction auction is available, it will be there also to balance those map that may look like "unbalance".
Thanks for the implementation anyway.
"Need auction for drafting initial factions as per Terra Mystica"
changed to
"Suggest faction drafting variant"
1) The feature will take many hours to complete
2) The feature is entirely volunteer work and we have families and competing responsibilities (see #1)
3) Following discussions on BGA and other sites regarding this, it's clear that no matter which approach we take to a draft a very vocal subset of players will be unhappy. (For a mild example of this, just scroll up to my previous post right here.)
This is something I'm still working on in my free time, but I make no promises as to whether it will ever be deployed. The vocal negative reactions towards optional work I've done previously (random maps, anyone?) makes me reluctant to volunteer myself for further abuse (see #3), so this isn't a high priority.
On a positive note, Gaia Project is an excellent game that has been embraced by the community at large using the publisher-provided ruleset.
Months of planning and volunteer hours have gone into making these a top-notch experience. Having said that, we also recognize that no single solution will please everyone. Fortunately, these optional experiences don't replace the core game experience. If you discover this particular implementation isn't for you, we would invite you to continue to enjoy the existing experience supported by the official ruleset.
Enjoy the new features! I look forward to seeing more varied factions in upcoming games!
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- 다른 테이블 번호 / 수 번호
- 새로고침을 해서 문제가 해결 되었습니까?
- 문제가 얼마나 자주 일어났습니까?
- 만약에 버그에 대한 스크린샷을 가지고 계신다면 Imgur.com 사이트에 업로드 하시고, 여기에 링크를 복사/붙여넣기 하시기 바랍니다.